The following oral history is the result of a recorded interview with Raymond G. Dewey and Judy Dewey conducted by Katie C. Doyle on March 14, 2023. This interview is part of the Rick Dillingham retrospective “To Make, Unmake, and Make Again” at the New Mexico Museum of Art.
Q: Hello, my name is Katie Doyle. I am the assistant curator at the New Mexico Museum of Art. I am sitting here on Tuesday the 14th of March, 2023, with Ray[mond G. Dewey] and Judy Dewey. I’m at their residence in Albuquerque, New Mexico. We are recording an oral history for the Rick Dillingham retrospective titled “To Make, Unmake, and Make Again”. The retrospective will be on view at the new wing in the Plaza building from October 6, 2023 through June 23, 2024. Ray, Judy, I will have you introduce yourselves now and we’ll get started.
J. Dewey: Hi, my name is Judy Dewey.
R. Dewey: Hi, I’m Ray Dewey. I’m related to Judy.
Q: So, Ray, when did you meet Rick [Dillingham]? And Judy as well, you’re welcome to respond as you see fit.
R. Dewey: Katie, we met Rick fifty years ago now, 1972, 1973. It was the University of New Mexico, undergrad, and we moved back to Albuquerque from Kansas City where we lived for three years after we were married. We were married in Albuquerque near the University [of New Mexico], but we were there for 3 years and then we moved back to Albuquerque and we met him. I can’t remember who introduced us at the time, but we had a lot in common because we liked indigenous Native American material, and we hit it off, personally, and it became a long, enduring, and wonderful friendship.
J. Dewey: One of the first times that we actually got together, that I recall, it of course was about pottery, and we were starting at that time to also collect pottery. Our favorites were from Hopi at that time, varied throughout the years, but at that time we loved the Hopi pottery. Rick was working so much with the potters out there. You knew them so intimately and always got the best pieces. We went over to his apartment and wanted to see what he had and I bought my first Indian pot from him. First of many, many that we bought through Rick. We cherished it for so long, it was such a special thing to have and remember our times with him. He could be so, so charming and so businesslike and at the end then turn around and be crazy, crazy Rick who we loved so much.
R. Dewey: I can continue, do you want me to continue?
J. Dewey: You can continue.
R. Dewey: Sure. For the next three years, really ‘72 through ‘76, we became closer and closer and did a lot of things together. I remember Rick would take me, sometimes take Judy, but I remember the first time we went up to Pueblo Feast Day at Santa Clara. He knew everybody. I’d never really been to a Feast Day—well, Judy and I had been to a Feast Day, a King’s Day actually, at Acoma before this, but it was our first Feast Day we went to with him. This was in the early ‘70s, and we went to Santa Clara, and he knew everybody. Of course, when you go to a Pueblo Feast Day, you’re invited to eat lunch at every home, so I had no idea in the first place and when I went I filled up with chile and everything was incredible. We ate lunch ten times that day and it’s crazy because the people were so giving. He loved them so much and they really respected him. The Pueblo people have such a wonderful sense of humor. Of course, Rick is right out there, so it was a great kind of thing to see him in action.
Through those years until he moved to Santa Fe, we were very close and did a lot, started a business. Judy and I started doing more business. This was well before a gallery in Santa Fe, and we always kept in touch. We had a lot in common. We lived very near the university, near the law school, so he was close to the university, so we hung out together. In ‘75 Rick moved to Santa Fe, bought a house on Agua Fria where he built his home and studio. Judy and I moved to Santa Fe the next year. We had acquired a business there with a partner of ours, John Coffman out of Tucson, and went to East Palace and Rick—we were all very, of course very excited about it, moving to Santa Fe—and Rick was excited we were coming up. We got settled and we started in 1976. I remember he got some pots made at Santo Domingo. That was the bicentennial year, and people always ask, “When did you start your business?”, and I’d say, “Well, we started the bicentennial year.” Santa Fe was on the mind of a lot of people, because the articles and magazines were one after another after another, it was—
J. Dewey: And Ralph Lauren.
R. Dewey: And Ralph Lauren [Laughter]
J. Dewey: He got [unclear]
R. Dewey: Santa Fe—it was a great time to be there. Rick and us were there ‘76, ‘77. He had a lot of connections to Hopi, Rick did, especially with the extra [unclear]. And during those first years, Rick worked with us, at the gallery, off and on. He wasn’t full time, always part time, but he was so knowledgeable, and I—we do have education backgrounds. I taught high school in Kansas City for three years and I always wanted our customers to be educated, and Rick was the guy. He helped a lot and then he curated a major show for us at our gallery, in those late 70s. It was unbelievable. The pots he curated, the potters that came, I remember vividly the wonderful person that came was Grace Chapella, the famous Hopi potter, and Margaret Tafoya. Margaret was there with Grace, and they were sitting next to each other, looking at each other, but they were both [unclear] when they said, “We’re related.” They started to talk.
J. Dewey: It was so fascinating, these two women sitting there, chatting in their own language. We were sitting there, peering, wishing that we could understand every word that they were saying. They’d talk and talk and then they’d break out into laughter, “Ha ha ha!” They’d start laughing, and they’d come back and start talking again. One of the daughters was standing there, it was, was it Grace?
R. Dewey: No, it was one of Margaret’s daughters interpreted for all of us. I don’t remember what was—
J. Dewey: Yes, and she would be saying, “Oh my gosh.” She’d sit there and she’d tell us how long ago they’re going back in history. Talking about—
R. Dewey: Yes, nineteenth century, eighteenth century.
J. Dewey: Now they’re back, they’re taking the horses, they’re doing trading back in Kansas City, and it was amazing. We wished so badly that could’ve been recorded. We didn’t even know it was going to happen, so we weren’t prepared, but, but they sat there and talked and talked and it was something to experience. It was amazing.
R. Dewey: The daughters, Margaret and the daughters, a few of them were around listening to these conversations in their language, and they were in tears. Because they said they were related, part of the same clan. Because Grace’s family, in the revolt, 1680 to ‘92, went from the Rio Grande to Hopi and that’s where Grace was from, but they were related. Their sense of humor, as Judy said, was incredible. Rick was part of that, and we had early early pots, historic pots, [unclear] contemporary, wonderful photography exhibit. We had a lot of people, that was a great experience for us, that was the early ‘70s—I’m not sure what year it was, late ‘70s, early ‘80s. And—
R. Dewey: Yes, so –
Q: Could you clarify the name of the gallery?
R. Dewey: Yes, we bought the business called the Treasure Chest, and it was owned by a man named Oscar Branson, who was an interesting character. He wrote the famous book on turquoise [Turquoise: The Gem of the Centuries]. He did a lot of revival, shall we say, of jewelry. He was a manufacturer and wholesaler. When Eveli Sabatie was in Santa Fe at the time, the famous potter—
J. Dewey: Jeweler.
R. Dewey: [What?]
J. Dewey: Jeweler.
R. Dewey: Jeweler, she worked a lot in Charles’ [Charles Loloma] studio, or in Oscar’s studio there. Judy and I bought the store, we stayed at that location from ‘76 to 1983, until we moved to the big location on the plaza. Rick and us were always really close. During those letter years before we moved in ‘83, anything else you can think of there?
J. Dewey: No.
R. Dewey: There was a collection that [Rick] was working on in California, and he said, “Let’s get in it. Let’s get in my van, take off, and we’re going to go out to look at this collection. It’s an incredible collection.”
J. Dewey: Yes.
R. Dewey: We got in his old van, the most beat-up van—I think he had five motor engines in it, at one time. I really was nervous to go with him [laughter], but we went all the way up. We drove all the way to LA first—maybe we stopped in Phoenix—and we went to LA [Los Angeles, California]. His parents lived in Thousand Oaks. We stayed with them. Then the next day we drove up to Berkeley [California], to a house, beat-up house, a really tough looking house in Berkeley on the hills, sliding down the hill. Guy’s name was McMillan or something, and we walked around the back, I said, “Rick, are you sure this is the right place? We’ve come a long way for this.” We went around the corner of the house, the front door was all boarded up, and we had to walk around the house and went to the back. Here was a man—he had a huge engineering manufacturing comp[any]—place in his basement and he was a major engineer, did parts for aeronautical companies. It was a crazy place down there.
We went up this locked stairway to his main house, it was like a hospital. The house was mint, clean, perfect, and in all the cupboards, all the tables, were covered with Pueblo pottery. Unbelievable. They had pales, historic, early historics, it was un[believable]—there’s a whole cabinetful of Lucy Luises. I don’t know where this man collected all this stuff, but Rick and him knew each other, and we walked out of there that day with some unbelievable pieces.
Put them in his old beat-up van, [laughter] drove back down to LA, and I always remember going by that place near Monterey [California] that they raise all the artichokes. We went by there and I said, “What is this? What are those?” He said, “You’ve never had a [unclear] artichoke?” I said, “No.” We stopped and we bought a big sack of artichokes, and then he took them that afternoon to his mother and she made a bunch of them for dinner that night for us, and he showed me how to eat them. I owe Rick a lot [laughs] from that trip. We headed on back to Santa Fe and on the way we sold a couple fabulous pots and [unclear] and then headed on back to Santa Fe. But that was one of the last really cool trips I took with him, just he and I, and we were there a long time until we [the gallery] moved to the Plaza in 1983.
In ‘83 our oldest son Adam was born, same year we bought the gallery, bought our business partner out in ‘81—maybe we moved there in ‘81 [pause] ‘82, yes. We moved there to the main Plaza at 74 East San Francisco, which is right at the center of the plaza, you’ll see our building, that was our location. Rick and I always kept in touch. He was very excited that we had our first son and our first child, so he gave us that fabulous hanging piece that he made in the little—
J. Dewey: Gingerbread.
R. Dewey: Gingerbread man cut out of an iron, oxide yellow, he gave that to us as a present when Adam was born, and Judy hung it over his bed when he was a baby. We’ve had a lot of relations with Rick.
J. Dewey: Yes.
R. Dewey: Going back a few years, it was 1978, Rick, Judy, I, Joe Carr at the time, a dear friend and Diana’s first wife, we all took off and went to the Day of the Dead in Mexico. We drove down. Diane had a little Volkswagen Bug, and we had a brand new ‘78 Pontiac silver station wagon. It wasn’t new when we got back. [Laughter] Anyway, we all went down, we had an incredible trip, we stayed the night before we left to Mexico. We drove, now, this is two weeks, and we spent the night in El Paso—with rain, I couldn’t believe the amount of rain. When we got up the next morning to go across the border, the bridge washed out. [Laughter] And we had to take our new car through the river bottom and then up a hillside to get on the highway and then on the other side—
J. Dewey: It was rocky. It was rocky.
R. Dewey: The Volkswagen went right ahead, and Rick always rode with us because he didn’t want to ride in Joe’s Volkswagen. Rick always rode in the backseat of our station wagon. But we had a great trip, and we went down and on the way from Guadalajara, we all got on one of those—flight—one of those you pull behind the boat, we all flew up in the air and parachuted back. They couldn’t get me off the ground because I’m so big from [unclear] the beach. But we all had an incredible time, and then we went on to Pátzcuaro. That’s where they had the Day of the Dead, Día de Los Muertos, and we spent a few days there. We collected a lot of pottery, lot of folk pottery there, filled up our station wagon.
The night of the big festival, when the fiesta first started, Rick and Joe, Diane, Judy and I all got in this little rowboat, with a guy. In the front of the rowboat from the shore of Pátzcuaro to the island of Janitzio, they put a little lantern with a candle in it, and that was in the front of the boat and the guy rowed across this lake to Janitzio Island to this incredible—no electricity there, everything was lights and the festivals and the candles, altars, it was an unbelievable experience and we shared that together.
We came back, we survived the trip back across the lake [laughs]. We then got in the car and headed down to Mexico City and drove into Mexico City on, thank God, Sunday afternoon, and we followed this little yellow Volkswagen the entire way because Joe Carr knew Mexico well and loved it. He, later on, wrote a lot of very important books on the history and interior design and artifacts and antiques of Mexico. Rick and Joe were very close in the late ‘70s, we were all very good friends. Joe and Rick started a gallery, became a friendly competitor to us and it was called “Mudd-Carr Gallery”, because Joe had a benefactor and was supporting Harvey Mudd. His [Mudd’s] family is one of the founders of the Claremont Schools in California. They had a building and they started a gallery. They became competitors, but we always had fun, it was never a bad rivalry at all. During the years, we had great parties and dinners, once you go to Rick’s house and—
J. Dewey: He loved it, yes. He loved to party. I have to say, in the gallery when he was working for us, we were having to inventory everything because we purchased it and needed to do an inventory system. We stayed up, I don’t know how late it was that we stayed up doing all the inventory, but he was always so funny and never, never pulled any punches about what he thought about somebody, including my grandmother. She was coming and we were there, and she was coming in the front door of the gallery with my parents, and she was very old. She was about eighty at that point, she could’ve even been close to ninety.
R. Dewey: Yes.
J. Dewey: I think she was in that range, and she was quite elderly and trying to open the door, and Rick goes, “Oh my God, who’s that battle axe coming in the door?” and I said, “Rick! That’s my grandma!” and he went, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry!” [Laughter]
R. Dewey: That was him, though.
J. Dewey: We laughed and laughed about that, calling my grandmother an old battle axe. He felt so bad about that, but it was hilarious, but he never pulled any punches about saying anything about anybody. He was so free about that.
R. Dewey: Yes.
J. Dewey: I’ll never forget that.
R. Dewey: Yes, yes, he was a joy to be around. We had lots of fun and of course he had a lot of friends, or a lot of unusual friends, and different friends that would always come in and visit and had great conversations. He had great friendships in Santa Fe. We had an incredible experience—we go to his house, I was telling Katie earlier, he’d invite us to his house for dinner, and he usually made albondigas in these beautiful big pueblo micaceous bean pots and put them on the gas stove, so when you came in you could smell the albondigas and the bubbling of it and the meatballs in it and the smell of it, and then on top of the tequila he’d serve and these are pretty good times. These are pretty good memories. We miss that, and then eventually he restored his little house on Agua Fria and built the studio of course, and remodeled the house really cool, he did a cool job on that. But we stayed friends all those years and [pause] I think that pretty much covers it to there.
J. Dewey: He loved to dance. Loved to dance. There’s a couple places that we’d go, and he liked to twirl me around and—
R. Dewey: Yeah, Judy’s little, so—
J. Dewey: He’d twirl me and twirl me and twirl me and twirl me! [Laughs]
R.Dewey: I get motion sickness just looking at him dance.
J. Dewey: Sit down we’d be—sweat pouring off of us, laughing and having such a fun time.
R. Dewey: I remember one time, I’d never been to the place but there was a bar in a nightclub there in Santa Fe called the Senate. It was a nightclub. It wasn’t a straight nightclub, and I was a little nervous about it. He said, “Eh, no problem, Ray.” I’d torn my Achilles tendon so I had a full-leg cast. I couldn’t dance. I—I couldn’t dance anyway—but they got me into this club, Judy and Rick and all of the friends, and he’s out there dancing, My back was to the wall with my big full-leg cast out there, talking to people, but I always remember that, Rick twirling Judy. I almost got motion sickness—he was a really good dancer. He also went to the Senate quite a bit with Joan Caballero, a dear friend, now a very well-known appraiser, used to work for us, used to be the manager of our gallery later on, Joan. I think she handled Rick’s demise, I think she handled a lot of the estate for Rick or the appraisal of the estate I believe, that was Joan Caballero. I think the other thing that I also was—Rick, a lot of difficult, obviously, with the AIDS situation, mentally and physically, it was very difficult.
J. Dewey: He lost his love of his life.
R. Dewey: Yes, he did.
J. Dewey: That accident.
R. Dewey: Yes, the accident. Both Rick and he came to our home [unclear] to see our kids and it was the last time he was at our home. There’s such a handsome couple, his first name was—
J. Dewey: When he [José, Rick’s lover] passed away, I went to the hospital. He had an accident, it was a very bad accident.
R. Dewey: Near his house on Agua Fria.
J. Dewey: Yes, and I went in and Rick was there by himself, and it meant a lot for me to come in there, and we sat and talked and cried and talked and, it was such a hard time for him. Really difficult time for him. He never got over it.
R. Dewey: I don’t think he ever recovered from that. They were such a—
J. Dewey: It was the family that ended up taking him back to Spain. That was tough. But anyway—
R. Dewey: Yes.
J. Dewey: Anyway, it was a tough time in his life. Very tough time.
R. Dewey: Yes, and of course, the AIDS situation came forward and he did some real profound pottery pieces in that—”[Black Bowl,] AIDS Series”, that were very profound during that period of time, did a few pieces. I also remember something he always wanted was a Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Which he got, he bought [unclear] it was a fancy, crazy thing, chrome, black leather bags—
J. Dewey: He was in black leather.
R. Dewey: He was a [unclear] black leather, he said, “Come on over, I’ll take it off today.” All of his saddlebags were full of medicine, his AIDS stuff, and it was raining, it was really raining. Agua Fria, near his house, we all went, a bunch of friends there, and he left. I don’t know if he went with anybody that day or anybody—he was by himself. He got on that huge Harley, he had a rainstorm, black leather, shiny bike, full of medicine in those saddlebags, and he went to Death Valley. He rode all the way to Death Valley and stayed there, and then eventually came back. A number of days later, week, I don’t remember, we were all so relieved to see him. From then on, it was difficult because he knew the time was closing on him.
J. Dewey: He went to New York.
R. Dewey: Went to New York.
J. Dewey: Yes. To that [unclear] big event. Because I know he worried he had to be fancy and so he had this black these black leather pants, and he has these fancy shoes that he’d gotten, because he had to look good in New York.
R. Dewey: Yes, in Rick’s house I always remember going in and coming down the hallway was all of his [pause]—
J. Dewey: Boots.
R. Dewey: Boots [laughs], he had a lot of real crazy Western boots, which he wore a lot, and then he had—it was right above hundreds of Mojavian human figures that he had in his collection at the time. Rick was very thoughtful about his collection and figuring out what he wanted to do with it. One thing that I was concerned about, something very important to him, he had a strong relationship with the Minges [Dr. Alan and Shirley Minge], who owned and restored the Casa San Ysidro in Corrales [New Mexico], and Dr. Minge had been a professor at UNM when Rick was there, restored this old, old house, actually recreated a seventeenth-century New Mexico house, which was a design that influenced Judy and I’s house that we build on Upper Canyon at 1557 [1557 Upper Canyon Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico]. Dr. Minge was given the archives of the Acoma people to research, and I remember visiting Dr. Minge—some people refer to him as “Dr. Minj”, but it’s really “Ming-gay” I believe—and I remember going into the music room and on the floor were all these boxes of old documents. It was unbelievable now, and I said, “What is it?” and he said, “Well, these are the archives of”—I think he said it was Acoma, and then also I think it was Jemez, no I think it was Zia, and he was researching them for water rights and different researches, doing—because he wrote a major book on Acoma and Rick had really major connections with Acoma, the people, the contemporary pottery, and historically how the Acoma pottery fit into the sequence of the history of ceramics and pottery in the Southwest. He got really close the Minges.
At that time Rick had acquired some incredible beams. They were about four inches by four inches, maybe twelve, sixteen, fourteen feet long, about six of them I think, because I remember he had them built into his house on Agua Fria in a hallway. They were gorgeous, they were carved on three sides. He didn’t build them in permanently, he had metal built around them so they could slide out. He said, “When I pass, I want these to go to Casa San Ysidro, to Dr. Minge.” When he passed, there was a number of situations—I can’t go into details, I don’t know a lot of details about the estate—but the beams didn’t go there. We found out later—I was inquiring where those beams were, because they were taken out of the house and put into some kind of storage unit, and I found about it and eventually over some time who was in charge of it and everything. We bought them, Judy and I bought them, from the estate or from that person who got control of those beams.
J. Dewey: We need to build a little something—I don’t even know what [crosstalk]
R. Dewey: [crosstalk] It was something of a structure of a shrine [crosstalk]
J. Dewey: [crosstalk] They were gonna be outside, and they would’ve been either stolen or [crosstalk]
R. Dewey: [crosstalk] Yes, these were pre-Revolt [Pueblo Revolt of 1680] pieces, these were 1560, and Rick wanted them to go to Dr. Minge to be saved. When the Albuquerque Museum later purchased the Casa San Ysidro, which is part of the Albuquerque Museum, I was asked with Nat Owings, my former partner, to appraise that entire collection, which we did. But during that period of time, when we got control of those beams, we contacted the Albuquerque Museum because I knew they were in that sequence of acquiring [the Casa San Ysidro], and we donated them in Rick’s honor, and they’re now part of the permanent collection of the Albuquerque Museum. So he got his wish, we made sure that happened.
The last thing that I can remember is [pause] I was not a Rotarian member in Santa Fe, but [the Rotary Club of Santa Fe] asked me to be on an arts committee that selected distinguished artists in Santa Fe. At one point I nominated and worked with Bill Field [William Field] on a film that they did on Rick. That was such a wonderful evening, it was incredibly large, I think it was the convention center, there were a lot of people and beautiful film that Bill Field did. Katie, I think you’re going to have it at the exhibition, so we’re excited to see that again. We were happy to do that.
I think the last thing I would say is that [pause] Adam, which he met as a child, he gave that gift to Adam—Adam ended up later going to Claremont College. [Laughter] Rick got his master’s there, and on that California trip where we learned how to eat artichokes, Rick took me to Claremont, I’d never heard of the place, schools, took me in to where he was working on his master’s degree and his studio, introduced me to everybody. [Pause] Later on, years later, when Adam decided to go to—I don’t know how many schools that Judy and we all toured, ten schools around the country, but Adam selected Claremont and the Pomona College, so that’s where he went to school. I always felt that Rick had a part in that, he made sure that that happened. That’s where I’d like to leave it today.
Q: And do you mind if I ask you some follow-up questions?
R. Dewey: No. Happy to answer.
Q: What year did Rick start the Mudd-Carr gallery with Joe?
J. Dewey: That’d be pretty [pause]—
Q: Or maybe like a window.
R. Dewey: It would’ve had to be in the early 1980s.
Q: Rude. [Laughs]
R. Dewey: We could probably try to find out for you on that, they were in two locations, they were over on Paseo de Peralta, the big building that Harvey Mudd owned, and later on they moved closer to downtown, in another old building, but that had beautiful—Rick and Joe had great taste in antiques, Mexican antiques and pottery and textiles and all, but I think it was—I don’t know. I think it was the early ‘80s.
Q: Okay, thank you. And then [clears throat] excuse me.
R. Dewey: Sure.
Q: How did Rick’s personality manifest itself in its work, or how do you see him in his work and in his scholarly practice?
J. Dewey: That’s a great question. In some ways I think he was against the grain. He was going to do something to show these broken pots, the Native American broken pots, that there’s still value in them. Just because a pot has a crack in it doesn’t make it not desirable to have. It’s almost like a human being, that humans aren’t perfect, but that’s the beauty in them, and I think in some ways that transferred into his pottery, this expression of that feeling. He was so creative, and so he wasn’t going to do what people expected him to do. You think of making pottery, it’d be these beautiful perfect pots, and that’s not who he was. He wasn’t going to do it. How he came up with it and the process was so so complex, and difficult. A lot of people could never figure it out. “Oh, it’s a broken pot.” They still felt that it was a broken pot. They never got it. Well, that was okay with him, because that’s not his kind of people, not his clients at all. It was such a concept that nobody had ever even thought about doing, that worked so well for him, and he knew how to do it. He knew technically everything that had to go into it, the type of firing he had to do, the materials he had to use, the clay that he had to work with. He knew technically so much about making pottery that he was a master. He was truly a master.
R. Dewey: I think that was a great response, Judy. He was not afraid. Rick was not afraid. He was an experimenter, an innovator. He figured it out. If he didn’t know, he’d figure it out. He also, as I remember Rick, he was a terrific listener. You would watch him when the Native American potter was talking to him at the pueblo or our gallery or all, and he was sincerely 100 percent in that moment. He was a listener. He learned. He took it all in. That’s the one thing about his pottery: it’s an all-in deal. It’s something that he had to put his whole heart and soul in it to pull the things off that he did. There are certain things he did with pots or he attached bones to them or this and that, and he’s the only one who really had the true meaning of what that meant to him. But I think Judy had a really important thing that, we also approach pottery, when you look at pottery, if it’s got a chip in it or it’s got a crack in it or maybe a number of cracks and the Native American has tied rawhide around it—it still has value to them. It has meaning to them. It came from Rick, that he saw that, that came through to him. He did it in his own way. I think the exciting things that we started to see later—we have, I don’t know, many of his pieces, we have five or six, seven of his pieces. All of them were gifts that he gave us. After he passed, we did acquire a couple of pieces, more major pieces, but they were all gifts, and he was a gift.
Personality-wise he was full of life and he had a great time doing what he was doing. He loved what he was doing. The only sad thing about him, he didn’t live long enough to do even more. But in his short lifetime, he contributed a lot, and I think now with respect to this—especially with his new retrospective at the Museum in Santa Fe, with Katie curating it—Judy and I talked earlier before you came, it’s a real tribute to him. He deserves it and I’m glad we lived long enough to see it. Again, our relationship with him goes back to 1972, ‘3, fifty years ago.